[Moon] [Moon-net] Will things ever change? Pls clarify!

Mon Feb 4 08:08:49 CET 2008

Hello Bodo

I would also like to start with some questions:

1. Could you pls tell us what is the percentage of stations working jt65,
being actively qrv non-stop on loggers / chatrooms during the time they are
QRV? For the last 7 years.
2. And what is the percentage of those being passively QRV? For the last 7
years.
3. Also, how many of those exchange QSO progress info on the logger, how
many self spot non-stop, how many arrange skeds non-stop? For the last 7
years.
4. Could you also tell us what is the percentage of stations working jt65 on
random? Without any prior knowledge of callsign and frequency of the other
station? Since conception of jt44/jt65.
5. Could you pls tell us how many stations using jt65 use Deep Search
decoder? Since its conception many yrs ago.
6. What percentage out of the whole group of stations qrv in jt65 work on
Random without any prior information during Contests?
7. What percentage of cw stations works on random on an everyday basis and
during Contests? Versus logger, skeds etc.

To answer on your questions : 

Perhaps you need to read again carefully the mails concerning this topic ,
we where discussing the exchange of QSO information trough chatrooms while
the qso is going on . 

So in my opinion your questions are off topic ! 

Best regards,
Kenny ON4DPX

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net
[mailto:moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net] Namens Bodo Heyl
Verzonden: zondag 3 februari 2008 21:24
Aan: moonbounceboard
Onderwerp: [Moon-net] Will things ever change? Pls clarify!

To make it more clear for me:

A) I am using JT65, look for the logger and see
XYZ calling on a certain QRG (selfspotting),
I call him, we exchange the necessary QSO infos,
I am not using the logger during the QSO.

B) I know from my paper list, that station XYZ is normally
using the QRG 144.139MHz.
I see him and call him, we again exchange the infos.
There is no logger info at all, my computer is switched off.

Which QSO is valid? A or B or none?

C) I am using CW, see XYZ selfspotting in the CW logger,
call him and fortunately we make a QSO

D) XYZ sends me an E-mail asking for a CW sked.
We arrange by e-mail (not snail mail) the details like
QRG and date/time, finally we make a QSO.

Which QSO is valid? C or D or none?

Thanks in advance for enlightment,

73s Bodo/DL2FCN

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "on4dpx Kenny" <on4dpx at skynet.be>
To: <moon at moonbounce.info>; <moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Moon] Will things ever change?

> Interesting topic .
>
> I totally agree with Jimmy , Peter , Petros and many others .
> The rules should not only be used during contest but during every qso .
> Contest or not , exchanging qso information via a non radio path should 
> make
> the qso NOT VALID !
>
> Those who says that such qso's are valid should take down their big arrays

> ,
> turn off their radio's and get a couple of computers ...
>
> If still not convinced I have various screenshots from a recent activation
> (BY7PP) showing extremely high "chat activity" with a lot of qso 
> information
> being exchanged and afterwards telling that they worked over 40 qso's ! If
> someone would like to read the screenshots drop me a mail and I will 
> forward
> it .
>
> It's a milestone that RSGB banned them , unfortunately ARRL don't want to
> spend much time on this subject as their responses to various emails
> concerning this problem are very vague , they know whats going on but it
> seems that they don't want to solve it .
>
> Best regards,
> Kenny ON4DPX
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net
> [mailto:moon-net-bounces at list-serv.davidv.net] Namens SV3AAF Petros
> Verzonden: zondag 3 februari 2008 16:28
> Aan: moon at moonbounce.info; moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net
> Onderwerp: Re: [Moon-net] [Moon] Will things ever change?
>
> As I can see at the "CQ-CONTEST" link, the condemnation of loggers and
> selfspotting is widespread with many Hams getting fed up with it.
> I also share the opinion that loggers and selfspotting do not fit in Radio
> Contesting and hope ARRL and other contest organizers will ban them just
> like RSGB did.
> 73 de Petros sv3aaf
>
> Peter Sundberg <sm2cew at telia.com> wrote: Interesting that you bring this 
> up
> Jimmy, because there has been a big
> discussion over the same issues on the CQ Contest reflector recently. The
> discussion there was regarding QSO liason via loggers, during an ongoing
> contest.
>
> See 
> http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/cq-contest/2008-January/date.html
> and
> scroll down to the end of the month where the subjec lines start saying
> "Selfspotting...." and later on "Using ON4KST-chat".
>
> Most all of the postings say that internet loggers are not a part of a
> contest.
> I share that opinion, of course.
> I also hope that the ARRL will reckognize that selfspotting and logger
> liason
> is not radio contesting, regardless of band involved.
>
>
> By the way, the January logs for the 2m Dubus CW EME Event is presented at
> http://www.sm2cew.com/aw_logs.html
> Thanks to all participating stations, see you for the next event on:
>
> February 16 1230-1530 GMT
> February 16 2030-2330 GMT
>
> 73 de Peter SM2CEW
> www.sm2cew.com
> http://blog.sm2cew.com
>
>
>
> At 14:28 2008-02-01 , jimmyv at hol.gr wrote:
>>Hello All
>>
>>I came across a very interesting decision of RSGB for its Contest
>>rules on 6m-4m-2m-70cm Contests.
>>This clearly shows that in the internet / chatrooms days we are living
>>(totally true for the absolute majority of JT65 EME assisted QSOs on
>>an everyday basis for the last 6-7 yrs), they are still Radio Amateur
>>Unions and Contest Organizers (e.g. RSGB, DUBUS, REF etc.)  acting
>>responsibly,  putting Radio as their first priority.
>>And prohibit Assisted Class and chatroom QSOs in a Contest.
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> -----
>>Here is the info:
>>http://www.vhfcc.org/rules/08rules/General.htm
>>
>>Section i:
>>i. The active use (posting messages, arranging skeds, self spotting
>>etc) of the DX Cluster and other spotting networks (including internet
>>facilities for example ON4KST) to assist an entry to a contest on 6m,
>>4m, 2m and 70cm is banned in all RSGB contests with the exception of
>>three IARU Region 1 co-ordinated contests (50MHz Trophy in June,
>>144MHz Trophy in September and 432MHz to 248GHz IARU in October) and
>>the 144MHz Marconi contest in November where permitted by the IARU
>>rules for these contests. You may spot a DX station as long as your
>>operating frequency is not given. A list of do's and don'ts can be
>>found here http://www.vhfcc.org/rules/08rules/dods.html
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> -----
>>
>>The list of do's and don'ts for RSGB related Contests could still be
>>useful to all modes, in the context of new ARRL EME Contest rules,
>>with NO Assisted class.
>>
>>Pardon me but I am really troubled with questions i want to share with
>>you: I REALLY WONDER WILL ARRL EVER  DO THE SAME FOR THE EME
>>COMPETITION? Take out Assisted class? Bring back the focus to Radio,
>>the challenge to the operator, the thrill of Random EME operation?
>>
>>Because even though Assisted is intended for new to EME and/or QRP
>>stations (by the way such class never existed in the cw days !!! for a
>>far more difficult mode of operation on moonbounce), in ARRL EME
>>Competition it is fully used by experienced, average, qro, etc.
>>stations in digital mode.
>>
>>I do understand the reasoning and arguments of QRP and new to
>>moonbounce stations. I really do. But pls allow me to say that they
>>claim they need help only because they ''were brought up'' by the
>>majority of their fellow logger ops this way. It is the Teachers'
>>fault - influence who put them in this norm from day 1.
>>
>>However, in the past software random digital tool development has been
>>released for those working digital, start working on random. This has
>>been MAP65. A paper on Random QSO practises had been published. Both,
>>by Joe K1JT. In the latter, examples on how random digital QSOs can be
>>made and examples of frequency segments for CQ callers and listeners,
>>were given. Jeremy W7EME had suggested the same, several times, in the
>>past. Will these suggestions ever be implemented? Some stations went
>>on further working digital Unassisted (minority) in recent yrs
>>Contests, developing various ways to be more effective, as they saw
>>fit. Congrats to all for taking the lead trying to improve their
>>station and help others!
>>But why ARRL has introduced Assisted class since it is used for other
>>purposes? Why should it remain?
>>
>>Could you tell me why in the cw only days, such class never existed?
>>For any operator, qrp/qro, new/old, whoever. Why cw Contest QSOs 99%
>>take place on random? Why can't we have a Radio - not an Internet -
>>ARRL Contest without exceptions?
>>
>>Those who claim fun as their first priority regardless of anything
>>else, or those who, for their own reasons, can only operate Assisted
>>6m-2m-70cm-23cm, they could ask ARRL to organize a separate rallye
>>type of EME event where everything is allowed to maximize their
>>beloved QSO numbers. Why not?
>>
>>Final note:I totally understand the need of Specific forms of
>>assistance required for 13cm (current frequencies allocation, doppler
>>shift, multiple feeds etc.) and above bands for all modes of
>>operation. Therefore, this is not a topic of this discussion.
>>
>>73
>>Jimmy SV1BTR
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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