[Moon] wsjt-cw

Fri Apr 18 08:42:27 CEST 2008

>This hobby is about experimentation and trying to push technology, and I
>have to say that amateurs are way behind the professionals now, whereas
>once we were in front. There are great techniques out there, but despite us
>being a supposed technical hobby, many are very very conservative, I hate
>that.

I agree that our hobby is about experimentation and trying to push
technology , look at all the smaller stations that are running CW , they are
pushing the edges on receiving capability , noise cancelling , high
performance antenna systems , etc ... 

That we are way behind the professionals ?? 
True in the aspect that some of use claim to receive and decode data that
isn't there or at least not completely received . 
I don't think professionals are working that way ! 

73
Kenny ON4DPX

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: moon-bounces at moonbounce.info [mailto:moon-bounces at moonbounce.info]
Namens moon-request at moonbounce.info
Verzonden: donderdag 17 april 2008 20:17
Aan: moon at moonbounce.info
Onderwerp: Moon Digest, Vol 18, Issue 29

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Today's Topics:

   1. 11-13 April , Weekend Activity report ,	from SM5LE for
      1296MHz (SM5LE)
   2. Re: [Moon-net] wsjt-cw  ... there is no debate. (Peter Sundberg)
   3. ..the Swiss are little backwards..?! (Dominique F?ssler / HB9BBD)
   4. Re: [Moon-net] wsjt-cw  ... there is no debate. (Brian Mullaney)
   5. Re: R:  wsjt-cw  ... there is no debate. (Lars Pettersson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:12:20 +0200
From: "SM5LE" <sm5le at telia.com>
Subject: [Moon] 11-13 April , Weekend Activity report ,	from SM5LE for
	1296MHz
To: "Moonbounce" <moon at moonbounce.info>,	"MOON_NET"
	<moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net>
Cc: Al Katz <a.katz at ieee.org>
Message-ID: <003201c8a08c$ab833ef0$2101a8c0 at sven8aee87826d>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi all

11-13 April Weekend Activity report from SM5LE.

Even if it was contest going on for other band than 1296 it was "1/2 good"
activity.

Worked 8 CW  and 7 JT  QSO:s .Was pleased to work JA4BLC on random CW and
new JT initial on JT  UT5JCW.

On CW:

JA4BCL , RD3DA , SP6JLW , LA9NEA , OK1DFC , K9SLQ , K5JL and G4CCH.

On JT:

SV1OE , RD3DA , RD3DA , RD3DA , G4CCH , UT5JCW , RD3DA. 

73 Sven SM5LE

-----------------------------------------------------------
SM5LE in JO99bd
2.2 meter mesh dish F/D=0.34
Septum feed OK1DFC. With choke ring.
250 W @ feed , CW ( 200W JT65 )
Spid RAS rotator with MoonSked software by GM4JJJ
Rig : TS-2000X (with 1296 MHz module).
LNA : NE32684A cavity NF ~0.3 dB
8 dB sun-noise
CW SSB JT65
1296 MHz only
SM5LE HomePage at : http://web.telia.com/~u14901544/
Pictures :  http://web.telia.com/~u14901546/home_page_no_3.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 17:12:10 +0000
From: Peter Sundberg <sm2cew at telia.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon] [Moon-net] wsjt-cw  ... there is no debate.
To: Brian Mullaney <bpm at lintech.com>, moon at moonbounce.info
Message-ID: <20080417170915.5B713AD56 at mail.allt1.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Brian, 

It is sad to note that you, as well as most Deep Search Evangelists, have
not grasped the fact that JT65 Deep Search NEVER communicates full
callsigns. Please read the JT65 tutorial on the WSJT webpage, and you will
see that this statement is correct.

CW communicates anything that is sent, at any level of S/N. A skilled
operator will copy at lower S/N than a not so skilled operator. 

Deep Search never COPIES calls.

Thanks Doug for pointing out that my "ARRL EME Contest" message had nothing
to do with CW vs digital, it was all focused on how the ARRL EME Contest
has collapsed into a dark hole. 

But I think the person I was pointing at in that message is very pleased
that the debate has turned into the good old CW vs digital feud, because
this has been his tactics ever since I started questioning the validity of
a "QSO" made by using Deep Search. And he has had good help from W9IP with
his "moderation ON" magic stick.

BTW, W7GJ can say Hallelujah! to JT65A Deep Search every week on Moon-Net
without comments, but when I say CW is King, I am a BAD and vicious person..

I love it. Because CW really IS King!

73 de Peter SM2CEW
www.sm2cew.com
http://blog.sm2cew.com

At 23:17 2008-04-16 , Brian Mullaney wrote:
>Doug McArthur wrote:
>> Hi Jonathan et al
>> Where .. just where has ANYONE stated that CW is better than WSJT in 
>> the recent postings.
>>
>>   
>Between SM2CEW saying "cw is king" every chance he gets and HB9BBD 
>saying that WSJT does nothing but
>"....."process" by simply picking callsigns from a file on the disk and 
>claiming a "QSO""
>
>Well, I don't know where anyone would get the idea that people are 
>stating that CW is better then WSJT
>
>As for me, I'll just get  back to wondering why its ok to have EME 
>callsign lists, but bad when it is on a computer.
>
>73
>Brian N2AET
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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> 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:27:23 +0200
From: Dominique F?ssler / HB9BBD <dfaessler at bluewin.ch>
Subject: [Moon] ..the Swiss are little backwards..?!
To: "'Naylor Jonathan'" <naylorjs at yahoo.com>
Cc: moon at moonbounce.info
Message-ID: <003101c8a0b0$4c4a38c0$2101a8c0 at BBDVajoSZ>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"

Jonathan

I tried hard to give you realistic facts on how I see the poor credibility
of many claimed "QSO"s.

 So far I thought that you are reasonably ok. Here I was wrong. You send
lies around which are brought to my attention. I will remember next time you
lie on the reflector.

If your credibility is to be measured in what you are writing around about
the cost of my dish, (Euro 100'000!!??) you have lost all credibility here.
I got it for FREE. The helicopter cost in 1996 were less than Euro 1500.

".. the Swiss are a little backwards"
Believe it or not, our tax burden is still too high but relative to the rest
of Europe decent. We may not be as smart as you think you are but we live
reasonably well here. We may not be too rich but we are not jealous to
anybody in the world. Apparently you would have needed more than 5 years
here to find out yourself.
We have financed our homes to a certain extent, but there is no property
crisis. We have advised our governemt to ask us from time to time what we
want to see next. 
OK, -if you call this backwards, it is your assessment. Keep on giving your
income to the government and remember daily that you are not as backwards as
the Swiss.
Really convincing, indeed.

73
HB9BBD Dominique

Van: Naylor Jonathan [mailto:naylorjs at yahoo.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 17 april 2008 8:00
Aan: Eddy Jespers
Onderwerp: Re: wsjt-cw

Eddy

> "Buying" a big dish is paying for the scrap aluminium. Go ahead and 
> start engineering the mount, hydrolics, tracking, I am sure this 
> person had sleepless nights figuring out how to put together his 
> setup.

No he didn't. He paid over ?100,000 for it.

> A helicopter trip of the antenna seems to be exotic, although, in his 
> country this is not unusual. Renting a crane in Belgium is more 
> expensive than his helicopter trip for his antenna in switserland ....

I lived in Switzerland for five years, he doesn't live in the middle of the
alps, he lives in Argau which has good roads, the Swiss are a little
backwards, but not that bad.

> Jonathan, The challenge for me going for CW EME on 23cm was to go for 
> "hardcore" to try to challenge nature.

In which case why reject every possible avenue?  Once you've increased your
power, improved you RX and have the biggest antenna that you can put up,
where next?

This hobby is about experimentation and trying to push technology, and I
have to say that amateurs are way behind the professionals now, whereas once
we were in front. There are great techniques out there, but despite us being
a supposed technical hobby, many are very very conservative, I hate that.

> Sure, you can not do this from your flat in the city ... but I can 
> give you the advice to work hard, sell your flat in the city, buy a 
> house in the country site, go and look to buy a surplus antenna for 
> the scrap aluminium and work us CW EME !

Don't be silly. Most of my work is in Brussels or nearby, I like the short
commute, and I like Brussels. Amateur radio isn't the only thing in my life.

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Naylor Jonathan [mailto:naylorjs at yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. April 2008 08:11
An: Dominique F?ssler / HB9BBD
Betreff: Re: AW: [Moon-net] wsjt-cw

Gruezi Dominique

Jonathan  ON/G4KLX  ex-HB9DRD

____________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:12:39 -0400
From: Brian Mullaney <bpm at lintech.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon] [Moon-net] wsjt-cw  ... there is no debate.
To: Peter Sundberg <sm2cew at telia.com>
Cc: moon at moonbounce.info
Message-ID: <1208455959.26178.17.camel at kb2tis.lintech.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 17:12 +0000, Peter Sundberg wrote:

> It is sad to note that you, as well as most Deep Search Evangelists, have
> not grasped the fact that JT65 Deep Search NEVER communicates full
> callsigns. Please read the JT65 tutorial on the WSJT webpage, and you will
> see that this statement is correct.

Oh, I'm now a deep search evangelist...who should I see about my
membership card?

It is really interesting how someone who purports to be interested in
honest discussion sees the need to label _everyone_ who dares disagree
with him.

> a "QSO" made by using Deep Search. And he has had good help from W9IP with
> his "moderation ON" magic stick.

Yeah, the same stick that normally comes out _after_ the usual suspects
post their "honest discussions" about how everything wrong with EME
today is because of WSJT. Funny how short your memory is...the last ~4
times this same topic came up, the same people started it, the same
group jumped in and played cheerleader, and the same mod stick came out,
before anything to the contrary had been posted.

For once, it goes on for more then a few messages, and you cry because
your message got moderated. Guess what? Mine did to, since you responded
to it on another list.

73
Brian N2AET
still wondering why cutting down the search area is ok on CW

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:09:49 +0200
From: "Lars Pettersson" <sm4ive at telia.com>
Subject: Re: [Moon] R:  wsjt-cw  ... there is no debate.
To: "Cominelli Franco" <franco.cominelli at sidergarda.com>,	"Doug
	McArthur" <tikaluna at bigpond.com>,	"Naylor Jonathan"
	<naylorjs at yahoo.com>, <moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net>,
	<moon at moonbounce.info.>
Message-ID: <001801c8a0b6$3a523fe0$a600a8c0 at RADIO>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Franco et Al

Have you heard the Saga!!!!. The never ending story   CW vs JT65

Your proposal to have a meeting at Florence 2008 EME conference  are
certainly  a good thing. 

To try to resolve the problems within the EME community. 

However this is a BIG quest mark to me mainly this problem is on 144 Mhz

And the EME conference should be 432 & UP    at least it was from the
beginning.

It`s not a good solution to have  an open for all Conference since we have
different interests.

 The 144 EMErs  want to work as many DXCC and strange calls as possible will
it be CW or Digital.

The 432 & Up are more into technical, stuff trying to improve their
Receivers, better  feeders for dishes,

Hunting every  0.1 db  and one thing not to forget the socializing with
friends that have the same interest. 

I don't believe that Digital are counted in here. 

don`t mix 50 & 144 EME with 432 & UP Conferences.,

Just a thought from a dumb Swede that only works CW     why?  I cant RTFM

73 de Lars SM4IVE

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cominelli Franco 
  To: Doug McArthur ; Naylor Jonathan ; moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net ;
moon at moonbounce.info. 
  Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:45 AM
  Subject: [Moon] R: wsjt-cw ... there is no debate.

  Hello all, i don't want to fire up the debate.
  I'll only to say that next EME CONFERENCE, in Florence, could be the right
place to talk and try to resolve the 
  situation. Nobody of us has interest to maintain the present situation. 
  If there is a real interest to resolve our problems, we could ask to the
CRT (Tuscany Regional Committee),
  to setup a room, for us. In this mode we don't get tired those, like SHF
operators, that maybe have not
  our problems.
  Why not?

  Francesco,IK2DDR

   -----Messaggio originale-----
  Da: moon-bounces at moonbounce.info [mailto:moon-bounces at moonbounce.info]Per
conto di Doug McArthur
  Inviato: gioved? 17 aprile 2008 0.13
  A: Naylor Jonathan; moon-net at list-serv.davidv.net; moon at moonbounce.info.
  Oggetto: Re: [Moon] wsjt-cw ... there is no debate.

    Hi Jonathan et al
    Where .. just where has ANYONE stated that CW is better than WSJT in the
recent postings. 

    One simply cannot mention CW and WSJT in the same sentence without some
one believing there is a debate about the merits of each.

    Who cares .. each have their own views. The irrefutable fact lays in
differences in system requirements and operational techniques. Reward for
effort should
    always be a recognised basis for any Award. Hence most would prefer
separating the modes for Contest purposes. (and Awards .. now theres a
debatable topic I wont touch!) 
    The DUBUS model, as stated repeatedly, is seemingly the logical answer.

    There is no need to change the ARRL weekends either as suggested. Leave
it as it is but simply strike out Mixed modes and "assisted" CW. If you
still wish to
    retain assisted and unassisted modes for WSJT then thats fine to.. you
only have to police it to give the results their fitting credence. GL!

    Now where did I say (or infer) CW was better than WSJT in this posting?
Please read the text as presented in the interests of further strengthening
our Hobby.
    73 Doug VK3UM 

    (got to go .. my chopper is waiting)

    that At 02:31 AM 17/04/2008, you wrote:

      --- EB1DNK <eb1dnk at hotmail.com> wrote:
      > Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla,
      >

bla....................................................................EB1DN
K
      > Jose Manuel IN62CI more info http://www.qsl.net/eb1dnk/index.html 

      I absolutely agree. Could Mr Moderator please put moderation on, and
      tell the people who have a big axe to grind, to do so elsewhere.
You're
      not impressing anybody with your repeated posts that CW is better than
      JT65, etc, etc.

      Perhaps when I can afford to buy a 10m dish and have it flown in by
      helicopter then I might join them, but living in a flat in a city puts
      that option out of reach.

      Jonathan  ON/G4KLX

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